2019 Robby Gordon Headquarters
NA$CAR Teams to test fuel injection at Kentucky
And people complain about "cheaters" now. Just wait....computer hackers will have a new area to work in. What ever happened to NA$CARS "keep the costs down" ?
What next ? one lug wheels, paddle shifters on the steering wheel. You will find me at the local dirt track, this stuff is gitting ridiculous.
What next ? one lug wheels, paddle shifters on the steering wheel. You will find me at the local dirt track, this stuff is gitting ridiculous.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Shelton on
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How cost effective is this to the smaller team like RGM?
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Permalink Reply by ShaneH on
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Jeff, That all depends on how Nascar rolls it out. Aftermarket EFI equipment is relatively cheap in the big scheme of thigns. I would say $20k per system(ECM, harness, injectors, data interface to Nascar black box, etc) is what teams would be out of pocket. The teams are already using high dollar Watermann fuel pumps. A single car team would probably want 3-4 full systems. The LeMans program I worked on had two cars. We used Motec EFI. We had 5 boxes. They weren't "locked" as these would be so we only had to spend Motec's normal charge which runs about $4 each, plus fuel pumps, injectors, harnesses, etc.
Now, what does a carb cost? The incremental costs to go EFI, although high, aren't that high because you're not going to need 20 boxes sitting on the shelf. At least not in my racing experience. Typically, if an EFI box fails, it's the injector driver. They are FAR more reliable than an ignition box which you see fail all of the time in Nascar.
All this changes if Nascar does a lease/rental on them, which they very well could, tied into the entry fee. The teams would probably have two systems for R&D and testing, then Nascar would hand out an ECM, injectors, and probably a fuel pressure regulator.
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Permalink Reply by GasOnRobby on
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Simple solution, don't control them. Let the teams and manufactures determine the best setup. Slowing cars down for parity is anti-racing.
Does the NHRA control the ECU mappings for the Top Fuel and Funny cars? They put on a good show.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Kenyon on
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@GasOn , NHRA,mechanical FI. Comparing Grapes and Grapefruit.
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Didn't realize NHRA uses mechanical FI. Thanks for clarification. What level of controls do they provide?
My point still holds, less rules and regulations == better racing.
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Permalink Reply by timothy price on
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at one time NHRA was using two helecopter fuel pumps and 3 sets of nozzles in top fuel 1 set abouve the supercharger 1 set on the intake ports of the intahe at the head and 1 set into the combustion chambers
finally NHRA ( no hot rods allowed) came to thier sences and cut the teams back
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That sounds pretty cool. At least the NHRA allowed them to innovate and try things. Nothing wrong with the sanctioning body pulling back when things become extreme or unsafe.
Key is to let them become extreme instead of limiting innovation and mandating parity through oppressive rules and regulations.
That is what F1 is doing this year with the FIA’s ban on off-throttle blown diffusers.
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There is nothing innovative about the mechanical injection system that Top Fuel teams use. It's basis goes back to cars like the fuelie 57 Chevy and 57 Corvette. It's like beating an egg with a 16lb sledge hammer. They've been using the same essential injection system since top fuel's inception many, many years ago. Their injectors are essentially just open ports. They use 60 gallon per minute mechanical pumps in a 3 stage arrangement controlled by timers and then use a high speed leanout system that bypasses fuel back using a dome loaded pressure relief valve. It's so simple and archaic that it's beautiful. :)
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and the best part is even an old idiot like me can make the system work
when i ran late model dirt cars everyone acted like running methonal was some kind of dark magic
my father ran top fuel dragsters in 1951 and i learned . to me it is easy just look at the plugs after every run or use a pyrometer and when its right its right
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One thing i want to add is that for pure peak HP, a carb is VERY difficult to beat. I've flogged a lot of engines on the engine dyno over the years and the same engine with a carb is typically 1% better peak hp than the fuelie engine. That said, area under the curve typically goes to the fuelie engine. Meaning EFI cars will initially be slower at a non restrictor track like Texas or California, but will be quicker at a track like Sonoma, Watkins Glen, Richmond, and Martinsville. With an increase in area under the curve, there's something else that comes into play though.........forward bite off the apex. In a tire limited car, sometimes less is more. This is where the tunability will really come into play.
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shane you ever been showed the trick of attaching a stainless steel fuel line to the header before the fuel runs into the carb while engine is on dyno??
we tried in collage and were getting 3-4% more power but the engine would evdentually vapor-lock (F1 used this prosess 17 years ago but it had the fuel pressure/volume that was controlled by a computer)
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Never tried that. My specialty was turbocharged engines, so we never wanted to do that to the fuel.
F1 actually used a closed loop fuel control cannister for a whilte that regulated temp and pressure. It was crazy sophisticated and was driven off of a canbus interface to the ECM. This was when Canbus was in it's very infancy. People don't realize that the cars they drive today have gauges, door locks, body control, and fuel injection componentry all connected in a large Canbus interface. Even my tournament ski boat has gauges and cruise control linked to the ECM via canbus. All because of the F1 R&D in the late 80s and early 90s.
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